Rooting for JUICE

[Strawberry]

12 hours ago, RocketRockington said:

Second, they don't hold their cards close to their chest   Anytime they've got something remotely good already, they've posted it as some screenshot - I can't think of a single meaningful thing in the game that was launched in February that was not shown off months or years ahead of time. (Except how buggy it was lol they waited till the ESA event for that )

Squad used to only show previews a couple weeks before release to make sure they were actually going to be able to release what was promised - Intercept has shown bullshots of colonies and interstellar stuff that are unlikely to make an appearance for 4-5 years after they were previewed.

I mean the main reason why they showed off so many colony assets and the like is because they expected to release soon and they wanted to build hype for the release. Showing off a massive interstellar rocket is much more attractive to consumers then showing them a thermometer. I think its fair to say that there's a good bit of assets we havent seen yet, like for example back in February we only saw the SWERV engine like a few weeks before launch, and Tylo and Moho we didnt really see before the ESA event as well (with Tylo honestly being their strongest design rework). I don't doubt they have the art assets done and the design done, as we haven't really seen them stall much on either of those things.

I think the main reason they havent been showing science parts off much (Im pretty sure we've only seen one science part so far), is because 1. Its not as big as a hype generator, so it wouldn't make much sense to show it off pre planned releases, and 2. Post launch they've definitely been more focused on showing off things that are coming on the next patch, most of the sneakpeeks we've seen recently are "Hey heres what bugs we've fixed" and "Hey heres UI rescaling". The only sneakpeaks (discounting the AMAs) we've had that haven't been released in the next patch is multiplayer, heating and maybe vacuum methalox engines. 

[cocoscacao]

12 minutes ago, Strawberry said:

Showing off a massive interstellar rocket is much more attractive to consumers then showing them a thermometer.

Dazzle the sheep with spectacle. I'll take thermometer images any day. That's what brings science points and unlocks parts. That's the good stuff...

Edited May 6, 2023 by cocoscacao

[Vl3d]

The tragedy of forcing the speed of imagination down to the speed of implementation. Keep up the good work!

[gussi111]

21 hours ago, thabuckwizar said:

But their 2 patches are not that large. They have just padded the patch notes by adding every small little insignificant fix that other studios would just file under "and more fixes/optimizations".

I'm glad that I'm not the only one that made a similar observation lol.

[jebycheek]

Finally some transparency, thanks for the update!

Edited May 7, 2023 by jebycheek

[Klapaucius]

On 5/6/2023 at 12:47 PM, RocketRockington said:

Lol this argument is so old and tired.  All fans who dislike a product are entitled teens, and that's why developers should feel free to hype, lie and gaslight them.    Get over yourself. 

The community works when the product is good, like it did during the KSP1 era.  You deliver something good and then you get to say it's good.  Anticonsumer crusaders like yourself who wants to justify any bad behaviour on the devs part by blaming the audience don't improve a single thing ever.

It is not tired. Nate is an employee of Intercept, and I guarantee you he will be shown the door if he is not careful in what he posts.  Furthermore, it is one thing to say, "I'm disappointed in the communications, and I would prefer the developers acknowledge the shortcomings we have highlighted," vs "yeah we launched a stinking turd."  That may be how the poster feels, but for many of us, that is no longer constructive or helpful criticism. It come across, as @jost noted, the writing of an immature person.

 

I've had my share of frustrations playing the game (and a lot of fun, too), and I have put those into bug reports. I understand that many folks feel the game has not lived up to expectations.  That is fair, though from all the comms that went out before release, I was not too surprised by its state.  What I, and I think many other members of this forum are finding fatiguing is the lack of dignified discourse. You can disgree. You can submit criticism, but it can be done in a non-abusive way that looks to the issue, not the person, be it Nate or fellow KSP players.   For example, I think @ShadowZone has done an exemplary job in his videos, taking a reasoned approach--calling out issues, but looking at the big picture in a constructive manner.

 

Has the KSP2 team done everything right? No. But I have seen enough over time to know this is a group passionate about this game.  These are not Wall-Street traders--they are fans who want this to work. We can either help them achieve that with useful contributions, constructive feedback and some moral support, or we can get on a soapbox and curse at the world.  

 

This forum has traditionally been one of the internet refuges for me: a place where people share, geek out and help each other.   I hope it returns to that.

Edited May 7, 2023 by Klapaucius
typo

[Meecrob]

27 minutes ago, Klapaucius said:

This forum has traditionally been one of the internet refuges for me: a place where people share, geek out and help each other.   I hope it returns to that.

Same here. Unfortunately, I think the reason these forums were generally a chilled place was because we all have different opinions, but we all love KSP, so civility is maintained. Remove the game we all love, and this is just twitter or discord.

 

 

I appreciate the attempt at transparency in communications, but I'm not sure it is aimed entirely in the correct direction. There is a lot of emotional verbiage, but nothing really that is actually quantifiable. This thread is proof of that. We are divided between those that believe the unprovable things communicated to us, and those that do not believe. Logically the solution is to communicate things that you can quantify and not those things we can only speculate on.

 

[asap1]

I am so glad to hear your publisher hasn't screwed you over

thanks nate

[KerbalabreK]

Great. Looking forward to more bug fixes and features.

[Redneck]

On 5/5/2023 at 1:55 PM, Nate Simpson said:

We are not worried about keeping the lights on, and we will be delivering all of the promised roadmap features over the course of Early Access

hey thats great @Nate SimpsonIm glad we paid your light bills and we were able to do our part! How about you guys do your part and give us a game that works!

Edited May 7, 2023 by Redneck

[jost]

11 hours ago, Klapaucius said:

It is not tired. Nate is an employee of Intercept, and I guarantee you he will be shown the door if he is not careful in what he posts.  Furthermore, it is one thing to say, "I'm disappointed in the communications, and I would prefer the developers acknowledge the shortcomings we have highlighted," vs "yeah we launched a stinking turd."  That may be how the poster feels, but for many of us, that is no longer costructive or helpful criticism. It come across, as @jost noted, the writing of an immature person.

I came to this conclusion not so much because of the offensive remarks (I don't think they will help but of course people are allowed to feel this way and express their feelings). I also don't talk about the many kerbals who are highly criticial of the state of the game but having good points (e.G data mining showing that KSP2 ist actually just a refactored KSP1, managment issues at IG,T2 , obvious showstoppers going into release, underwhelming communication with the community etc).  
Obviously these girls and guys are NOT entitled teenagers. 
But to expect that people will doing a walk to Canossa (1), risking their job just to please some angry video game nerds (who will still be angry afterwards) is just ridiculous and childish. To expect that the developers won't have any vacation  until the game is feature-complete and free of bugs too. 
And I can't help but guess that these kind of people never actually had a job in a company with an own PR department. Which people are most likely to not having these experiences? Teenagers. I don't blame them for it but I don't take them to seriously either. They are entitled to their opinion about the game and I'm entitled to my opinion about them
(1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_to_Canossa 

[Klapaucius]

14 minutes ago, jost said:

 I came to this conclusion not so much because of the offensive remarks (I don't think they will help but of course people are allowed to feel this way and express their feelings).

Thanks for the reasoned response. But I wonder if people really need to express their feelings all the time.  And if so, can't they do it without being abusive?  I think we have come to accept far too much rudeness as just part of life.  "Telling it like it is," has become a eumphemism for behaving badly; it is far too easy to be a keyboard warrior.

14 minutes ago, jost said:

And I can't help but guess that these kind of people never actually had a job in a company with an own PR department. Which people are most likely to not having these experiences? Teenagers. I don't blame them for it but I don't take them to seriously either. They are entitled to their opinion about the game and I'm entitled to my opinion about them
(1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_to_Canossa 

Alas, I am not sure they are.

Without getting too much more off topic, @Nate Simpson, I've put over 100 hours into KSP2. I've had many frustrating moments, but I have had moments of glory and wonder.  KSP2 has its big bugs, but even in its infant state, it has expanded from KSP1 in many ways. And I am enjoying NOT dealing with certain frustrations from the first game.  I'm looking forward to how this develops.

Edited May 7, 2023 by Klapaucius

[Vl3d]

I say it's good we all continue lurking and observing for a while. The falling player numbers for KSP2 and the stable numbers for KSP1 confirm this. Clearly a lot of us have lived with the hope that constructive dialogue about design decisions for KSP2 would come from Nate and management. This has not happened - we only get what we get fed, the game design is transparent only as a re-implementation of KSP1 and the new mechanics are a black box (which btw we don't know when they will be added to the game).

It's OK, all we can do is wait and see what the team is working on. Going on year 4.. 5.. etc. If the only publicly communicable idea is that "we have the community feedback and we're considering it" but there is no dialogue or exchange of ideas just because the Intercept team knows best, OK. I trust them, I have no other choice. I'm sure all community members have their own opinions about this. For now maybe we should only address what exists and not what might be, cause there has been a lot of years of patience and KSP1 modding and community discussions and new ideas that are nowhere to be seen in the new game.

I personally don't see anything that would encourage me to try to put in extra effort for now, except for the fact that KSP is a necessary game for humanity and it should exist as a concept (which has previously been described and detailed in KSP1, in mods, in forums posts and by the community). Still have the patience to see how exactly it will be implemented and I will go back to playing the game after new content gets added.

4 hours ago, Klapaucius said:

it has expanded from KSP1 in many ways. And I am enjoying NOT dealing with certain frustrations from the first game

"Expanded" is a very broad and optimistic term. I would say KSP1 mods have expanded KSP1 in many ways.

Edited May 7, 2023 by Vl3d

[GGG-GoodGuyGreg]

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

I say it's good we all continue lurking and observing for a while. The falling player numbers for KSP2 and the stable numbers for KSP1 confirm this. Clearly a lot of us have lived with the hope that constructive dialogue about design decisions for KSP2 would come from Nate and management. This has not happened - we only get what we get fed, the game design is transparent only as a re-implementation of KSP1 and the new mechanics are a black box (which btw we don't know when they will be added to the game).

It's OK, all we can do is wait and see what the team is working on. Going on year 4.. 5.. etc. If the only publicly communicable idea is that "we have the community feedback and we're considering it" but there is no dialogue or exchange of ideas just because the Intercept team knows best, OK. I trust them, I have no other choice. I'm sure all community members have their own opinions about this. For now maybe we should only address what exists and not what might be, cause there has been a lot of years of patience and KSP1 modding and community discussions and new ideas that are nowhere to be seen in the new game.

I personally don't see anything that would encourage me to try to put in extra effort for now, except for the fact that KSP is a necessary game for humanity and it should exist as a concept (which has previously been described and detailed in KSP1, in mods, in forums posts and by the community). Still have the patience to see how exactly it will be implemented and I will go back to playing the game after new content gets added.

"Expanded" is a very broad and optimistic term. I would say KSP1 mods have expanded KSP1 in many ways.

I'm here wondering if we'll ever get more specific information than "we will be delivering all of the promised roadmap features over the course of Early Access".

Like when is the "Early Access period" currently planned to end? Months? Years? Decades?

Even a rough and broad estimation (that's totally fine and understandable if it will be adjusted later) is much better than "when it's done (tm)".

Edited May 7, 2023 by GGG-GoodGuyGreg

[Superfluous J]

8 minutes ago, GGG-GoodGuyGreg said:

I'm here wondering if we'll ever get more specific information than "we will be delivering all of the promised roadmap features over the course of Early Access".

We won't.

8 minutes ago, GGG-GoodGuyGreg said:

Like when is the "Early Access period" currently planned to end? Months? Years? Decades?

Any guess, even by the developers, would be wildly inaccurate.

8 minutes ago, GGG-GoodGuyGreg said:

Even a rough and broad estimation (that's totally fine and understandable if it will be adjusted later) is much better than "when it's done (tm)".

Because giving rough and broad guesses at release dates has gone so well in the past?

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

1 hour ago, Superfluous J said:

Because giving rough and broad guesses at release dates has gone so well in the past?

Grin! 

[regex]

2 hours ago, Vl3d said:

"Expanded" is a very broad and optimistic term. I would say KSP1 mods have expanded KSP1 in many ways.

IMO if the strength of your game lies in its modding community your game isn't really that good. KSP1 is pretty lackluster from base install and, at the moment, so is KSP2, but for different reasons. Like with KSP1's development we'll have to wait and see how KSP2 develops.

[Sylvi Fisthaug]

On 5/5/2023 at 11:41 PM, Scarecrow71 said:

But what about the rest of them?  The developers don't post on the forums, and we have no idea what they are trying to fix.  

Have you read the post Nate is referencing from  on the QA team? 

On 5/5/2023 at 8:55 PM, Nate Simpson said:

Yesterday, Darrin House, our Director of QA, posted a really in-depth dev blog that I think does a great job of showing the behind-the-scenes reality of testing this game.

The post is comprehensive, and probably took several hours out of Darrin's work week. 

The post cadence you seem to be looking for will take man-hours, even though I do not suggest here that you expect as comprehensive of updates like the one Darrin posted. With that said, if all the devs, or some of them, regularily posted about their doings here, collectively it adds up to a lot of man-hours that could be spent working on the game. 

I know personally where I want dev time well spent, and I do believe you and me are in the same ballpark about that one. 
(hint: it's not here on the forums.)

Edited May 7, 2023 by Sylvi Fisthaug
typos

[Scarecrow71]

2 minutes ago, Sylvi Fisthaug said:

Have you read the post Nate is referencing from  on the QA team? 

The post is comprehensive, and probably took several hours out of Darrin's work week. 

The post cadence you seem to be looking for will take man-hours, even though I do not suggest here that you expect as comprehensive of updates like the one Darrin posted. With that said, if all the devs, or some of them, regularily posted about their doings here, collectively it adds up to a lot of man-hours that could be spent working on the game. 

I know personally where I want dev time well spent, and I do believe you and me are in the same ballpark about that one. 
(hint: it's not here on the forums.)

If you are going to quote me, at least provide the context.  I was asking specifically about the rest of the bugs and which ones are being worked on, and I mentioned that the devs don't post here as a way to say that we don't know what they are working on.  I never said they should post here.

Again, please use context and try to see what my post actually is instead of keying on one sentence and then tearing into me because you think I want something I didn't in fact mention.

[Sylvi Fisthaug]

14 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

If you are going to quote me, at least provide the context.  I was asking specifically about the rest of the bugs and which ones are being worked on, and I mentioned that the devs don't post here as a way to say that we don't know what they are working on.  I never said they should post here.

Again, please use context and try to see what my post actually is instead of keying on one sentence and then tearing into me because you think I want something I didn't in fact mention.

I had a longer post prepared to you, but I lost it in editing. Bedtime has approached, so this will be shorter and with less quotes.

But highlights include that I am sorry for how my "Have you read the blog post?" came about, it was not my intent to "tear into you" as you said. I can see that this is possible to view as sarcasm, and I am sorry for that. 

I quote shorter sections of posts just to make my own more scroll-friendly, especially for mobile users, as my quotes take up less screen space. I don't intentionally leave out context. Still, I picked that sentence out as it highlights the context of your entire paragraph in that post. Feel free to highlight where I leave out important context if you disagree on this, but I recommend you do this in my DMs rather than on the forum, as we shouldn't post on eachother's persons (like now) here. 

Still, I did not read your last paragraph before posting; the one about looking forward for the new updates while still playing KSP1. I am sorry for that, as this actually puts meaningful context in your view of the team and the game, where my post could bias your percepted view of the game and the team towards a more negative path, than the entire post. I am sorry for this as well. 

Sylvi says, Goodnight.

[Wheehaw Kerman]

On 5/5/2023 at 4:32 PM, MechBFP said:

Thanks for the update. The overall demeanor on this forum the past couple weeks has been quite negative, to say the least, and can't say I don't necessarily feel the same at times. Overall I don't suspect that will change anytime soon as I think a fair chunk of us have mostly or altogether moved onto other things until this starts to see some serious content/improvements being pushed out to make it worth our time.

I am glad to hear that people new to KSP are having fun, as that is a good sign that it will hopefully pickup traction later on. Unfortunately I personally can't say the same as a veteran KSP player but hoping that is able to change soon.

Agreed.  Nate’s post has just confirmed what some of us have been saying all along: that the game is a long term property for TT, and that it is proceeding according to plan.  It’s a pity that this seems to be enraging some people.

On 5/5/2023 at 4:52 PM, RocketRockington said:

Bold is mine.  Tucking in obvious falsehood in with the all the unverifiable statements just makes us further doubt the rest of it.   

Your velocity is clearly not good.  3 months after launch and you've managed 2 patches that haven't addressed a huge swath of playability problems...after 3 years of delays what you claimed were to make sure everything was high quality.    Look at actually successful EA titles and their cadence of updates and then tell us why 6-7 weeks between updates is a 'good' velocity.

What sort of inside information do you have demonstrating that they aren’t making good progress on the rest of the game?  Do share…

[stephensmat]

(Raises hand meekly) Does anyone actually have any news on the attempts to fix the JUICE probe's antennae? The latest info I could find is nearly a week old.

[Racescort666]

On 5/5/2023 at 5:17 PM, thabuckwizar said:

You can read it here https://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/12652, its significantly more complicated in the real world than what's presented in KSP

It is significantly more complicated in the real world than KSP presents but KSP hides the majority of the difficult math behind a fairly simply UI. There are complex topics with complicated mathematics that can be explained intuitively with a few assumptions made: 

 

[RocketRockington]

3 hours ago, Wheehaw Kerman said:

What sort of inside information do you have demonstrating that they aren’t making good progress on the rest of the game?  Do share…

Thier past slow development to date, as I spoke of in my post.  What proof do you have that they are making good progress? 

[Dantheollie]

Twenty years from now, we will look back at these posts and share a hearty laugh at our internet-arguments over our little Space-frog Rocket Simulator game

By then KSP2 will be out of development and it will have become whatever it must become. Will our words here be perfect representations of gamer impatience? Perhaps they'll age well?

Our legacies preserved in digital amber, here in our little corner of the internet, as petty arguments over an early access game 

 

I feel like this has been said before. Maybe we all need to chill, lest we loose the spirit that made these forums such a lovely place to be