What may ultimately drive me away from the Kerbal Space Program

[Bej Kerman]

7 minutes ago, AtomicTech said:

Have they taken time to admit the fact that KSP 2 is nearly unplayable for a wide majority of the KSP community?

Yes.

7 minutes ago, AtomicTech said:

It makes you wonder what KSP 2 would've been like if @HarvesteR were at the helm....

We all saw how that one panned out.

[Scarecrow71]

37 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

To claim the developers are not being transparent when they are posting frequent updates and calling out non-existent visual bugs is not criticism, it's just a tantrum.

And what about the honest criticism being leveled against the devs?  Or are all viewpoints against the game tantrums?

[Alexoff]

47 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

when they are posting frequent updates

48 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

calling out non-existent visual bugs

Comedy called "KSP1 was a failure" continues here

[Majorjim!]

My dude…. The issue here is not the community it’s the game… we LOVE KSP. I love it so much I spent more than 4000hrs of my precious time on earth playing it. 
 KSP 2 was this fever dream of KSP+ Everything we know and love about the game but bigger! Better! Beautifuler! 
 What we have at the moment is none of those things.. we’re upset because we care. If I didn’t care about the game I wouldn’t be here. 

[Bej Kerman]

4 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

Comedy called "KSP1 was a failure" continues here

Well it was.

[AtomicTech]

12 minutes ago, Majorjim! said:

My dude…. The issue here is not the community it’s the game… we LOVE KSP. I love it so much I spent more than 4000hrs of my precious time on earth playing it. 
 KSP 2 was this fever dream of KSP+ Everything we know and love about the game but bigger! Better! Beautifuler! 
 What we have at the moment is none of those things.. we’re upset because we care. If I didn’t care about the game I wouldn’t be here. 

Aye

33 minutes ago, Dantheollie said:

If my opinion can be of any value (which it isn't) I'd like to respectfully ask a particular set of users if it is worth the time and effort to continuously battle each other, at the detriment of the social fabric of our community.

It isn't and I'm quite tired of doing it.

It's almost I've leared nothing about watching politics 

[Klapaucius]

In reading through the responses of some folks, what is interesting is that nowhere in my original post do I say we cannot be critical. What I have an issue with is ad-hominem attacks and pointless back and forth.   Constructive vs destructive criticism.  We can all get angry and frustrated;  I've lost the plot more than once over symmetry issues in the VAB, not to mention wings falling off all my aircraft.  I'm not thrilled with the UI, as I think the text is very hard to read.

But the question is: how do we express that frusration and how do we give feedback in a dignified manner?

 @VlonaldKerman put up this post the other week that I thought asked some very good questions. In addition, most of the responses were polite and on-topic, despite being critical.

 

I certainly take issue with the idea that the moderators are shutting down all critical threads. I think what they are trying to do is maintain some decorum.

Edited May 21, 2023 by Klapaucius

[Rutabaga22]

I have felt this over the past 2 months. I used the forums regularly, then the new game came out and I just kinda stopped. I stopped playing the original and stopped playing the sequel. I get that there would be talk about the new game, but the negativity was so overwhelming that I closed off from ksp. Even my friends who had never played either games were talking about how big of a flop the sequel was, so I stopped playing. I'm glad to be getting back into it, though.

[mcwaffles2003]

4 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

And what about the honest criticism being leveled against the devs? Or are all viewpoints against the game tantrums?

Umm, no one here said or even hinted that's not welcome, it's weird though that you seem to take offense to the notion as stated...

9 hours ago, AtomicTech said:

I'd give it some time; I think @Vanamonde's insight is pretty relevant

Oh I don't mean to be pessimistic, I just was stating the situation as it is at the moment. People with noting positive to say and just relentlessly complain will get bored and go away eventually, right?

RIGHT? O_O

please tell me I'm right Q _Q

Seriously though, I've never blocked people before (not just here, anywhere, I don't like blocking people) because I have hopes that they may produce at least an iota of useful thought in the future but I have a small list now and I don't like it.

Edited May 22, 2023 by mcwaffles2003

[Vanamonde]

Quite a few players reverted to older versions of KSP1 after aerodynamics was changed, but they did have older versions to fall back upon and so didn't quit entirely. Similar phenomenon. A number of players also boycotted over the Curse partnership, EULA changes, and some other stuff I can't remember right now. There have always been ups and downs. 

[pandaman]

11 hours ago, AtomicTech said:

 

Have they taken time to admit the fact that KSP 2 is nearly unplayable for a wide majority of the KSP community?

I'd be more inclined to say 'unenjoyable' rather than unplayable.  

As well as the frustrating bugs, it may not yet 'do' what many of us want gameplay wise, but it clearly is playable.

[Starhawk]

Some off topic material and some personal remarks have been removed.

Please do not derail the thread by replaying the same arguments over and over, and please refrain from posting personal remarks.

Thank you for your understanding,
Forum Moderation Team

[Socraticat]

6 hours ago, pandaman said:

I'd be more inclined to say 'unenjoyable' rather than unplayable.  

As well as the frustrating bugs, it may not yet 'do' what many of us want gameplay wise, but it clearly is playable.

There is a point to be had here with system requirements and user systems. On some older hardware the game legitimately stops becoming playable.

I don't have a 1650 to confirm, but I hear that's the dominant Steam card... I don't know what the most common Kerbal User card is.

I would also recommend the use of "Some" in arguments to anyone reading this. As in, the game is "clearly playable" for "some", but not necessarily the otherwise assumed "all". It's deflationary and acknowledges that there's some gray between black and white.

[adsii1970]

20 hours ago, Klapaucius said:

I certainly take issue with the idea that the moderators are shutting down all critical threads. I think what they are trying to do is maintain some decorum.

I'm going to go way out on a limb here. I'm responding to this because it is a constant criticism we often see on the forum. I've not been asked to respond to this by anyone on the moderation team or here, and am responding to this on my own. My response reflects only on me.

As a moderator, it is important to realize that I am a typical forum member like many of you. I love Kerbal Space Program and I love being a part of this community. In fact, when I was first approached by HarvesteR to do the very first images for the threads of the month, I jumped at the opportunity. When I was asked if I wanted to be a moderator, I jumped at that opportunity, too. And if I am ever asked to do anything more for the community, I will jump for those opportunities as well. Why, you ask? Because I want to give back to the gaming community that has given me so much. Many of you old timers and a few of you y'ung 'ns are as close as family to me. And if I can do my part to make it a better place, then I will do all I can to make it so.

As a moderator, I (as the other moderators I work with as a team) have to make some tough calls. Not only do we have to follow the forum guidelines, there are more guidelines - moderation guidelines - we adhere to. Those rules are to keep the forum as PG-13 rated as we can and to keep it as inviting as we can to everyone. At times, this means we do have to step in and edit posts where we can, or if we cannot edit them, hide problematic posts so that the decorum of the forum is maintained. At times, we have to temporarily lock threads. And on rare occasions, we have to hide them from view if they become too toxic. We do none of these things lightly or without any serious consideration as we do it all as a team and discuss it as much as possible. And when we do have to take more punitive action against forum members, it is not something we take great pleasure in doing. It is usually the last resort. But it is part of the responsibility we took on when each of us agreed to become a moderator.

There are times the position is rewarding. I enjoy helping out fellow forum members find mods they are looking for, problems with game or mod installations, or the like. I enjoy playing the forum games and good conversations just as any other forum member surely does. But there are days it sucks day old gym socks when the more serious aspects of moderation duties are forced to happen. I'd prefer if we could do things in other ways, like discussing our differences, than the name calling, the personal attacks, and other forum guideline breaking things we see that forces moderator action. For the most part, many of our forum members can do this very thing. Some cannot help it. So, in the meantime, do what you can do to make your corner of the forum a better place.

Thanks for putting up with my rant - oh, and by the way, I think that once KSP2 is released in its final form, it will be a good game. Remember, in the gaming world (or at least until recent times) an early release game did not count as actually being released until it reached 1.0.  

So, to answer the OP, what will drive me away from KSP? Not the community, I have made too many friends. Not the game, because I will play KSP as long as I have a system that can run KSP (the original) and believe that KSP2 will be fine. And I am eagerly anticipating that once KSP2 is in its final form, we will see a KSP3. So, yeah, I am here to stay...

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

On 5/20/2023 at 10:53 PM, Klapaucius said:

What kept me going and going was the community, specifically this forum.

I share some of your concerns - and the NON KSP2 portions of the forums (like my usual hangout, "Science and Spaceflight") are still the way you recall.

The emotions people are expressing here go way past disappointment or annoyance with bugs.  Folks here feel like they were actively deceived and outright scammed into buying a product that is so clearly not what they were promised. 

The counter argument to this seems to come in two forms: a pollyannish "the game has potential, it's EA, they can fix it, give them time" or an ad-hominem attack on the complainer for being so emotional about the experience.  That is often followed by wall posts about all the failure to meet expectations, explanations supporting the emotional content or responsive ad hominems... resulting in thread closure.  Repeat cycle.

It's pretty much the same six people in multiple threads barking and snapping at one another, along with maybe another 12 who like to do drivebys on either side of the argument.

 

The point I keep coming back to is that Intercept has a 'good will' problem at the moment and have been prosecuting a failed Comm Strategy.  I've recommended to them to hire a Crisis Management consultant - because their in-house solutions are either worrying people at the low end to driving people away in the main, or outright liquiding them off.

Most people have left.  You can tell this by merely skimming the KSP2 boards.  Those who've stuck around seem to me to be people who would actively enjoy playing the KSP2 version we've been led to believe could happen... so I don't resent them their opinions.  Even if I am kind of amazed they can hold on to their anger this long.

Honestly - I think the only way Intercept is going to resolve this is to fix the game.  That's the only thing that will ultimately work.  But in the meantime they either should find a better way to communicate with fans - or go completely dark and work their tails off until its fixed.

 

[AtomicTech]

24 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

I'm going to go way out on a limb here. I'm responding to this because it is a constant criticism we often see on the forum. I've not been asked to respond to this by anyone on the moderation team or here, and am responding to this on my own. My response reflects only on me.

As a moderator, it is important to realize that I am a typical forum member like many of you. I love Kerbal Space Program and I love being a part of this community. In fact, when I was first approached by HarvesteR to do the very first images for the threads of the month, I jumped at the opportunity. When I was asked if I wanted to be a moderator, I jumped at that opportunity, too. And if I am ever asked to do anything more for the community, I will jump for those opportunities as well. Why, you ask? Because I want to give back to the gaming community that has given me so much. Many of you old timers and a few of you y'ung 'ns are as close as family to me. And if I can do my part to make it a better place, then I will do all I can to make it so.

As a moderator, I (as the other moderators I work with as a team) have to make some tough calls. Not only do we have to follow the forum guidelines, there are more guidelines - moderation guidelines - we adhere to. Those rules are to keep the forum as PG-13 rated as we can and to keep it as inviting as we can to everyone. At times, this means we do have to step in and edit posts where we can, or if we cannot edit them, hide problematic posts so that the decorum of the forum is maintained. At times, we have to temporarily lock threads. And on rare occasions, we have to hide them from view if they become too toxic. We do none of these things lightly or without any serious consideration as we do it all as a team and discuss it as much as possible. And when we do have to take more punitive action against forum members, it is not something we take great pleasure in doing. It is usually the last resort. But it is part of the responsibility we took on when each of us agreed to become a moderator.

There are times the position is rewarding. I enjoy helping out fellow forum members find mods they are looking for, problems with game or mod installations, or the like. I enjoy playing the forum games and good conversations just as any other forum member surely does. But there are days it sucks day old gym socks when the more serious aspects of moderation duties are forced to happen. I'd prefer if we could do things in other ways, like discussing our differences, than the name calling, the personal attacks, and other forum guideline breaking things we see that forces moderator action. For the most part, many of our forum members can do this very thing. Some cannot help it. So, in the meantime, do what you can do to make your corner of the forum a better place.

Thanks for putting up with my rant - oh, and by the way, I think that once KSP2 is released in its final form, it will be a good game. Remember, in the gaming world (or at least until recent times) an early release game did not count as actually being released until it reached 1.0.  

So, to answer the OP, what will drive me away from KSP? Not the community, I have made too many friends. Not the game, because I will play KSP as long as I have a system that can run KSP (the original) and believe that KSP2 will be fine. And I am eagerly anticipating that once KSP2 is in its final form, we will see a KSP3. So, yeah, I am here to stay...

Here's to a long future of KSP

[Periple]

On 5/21/2023 at 4:53 AM, Klapaucius said:

Anyone who has seen me on these forums over the past five years knows I try not to get in disputes, try to see the positive and try to be helpful and constructive when I can.  I'm not sure even posting this thread is a good idea, and I may be inadvertently inviting that which I am trying to work against.  But I am just frustrated--not at the game, but at the community. I feel let down.

I feel very sorry for you Klapaucius! I haven't been here long but long enough to see that you're fun, kind, and helpful. I also pretty much stopped posting because it seems that in every thread it's the same people making the same complaints in most of the same way and it's just not any fun!

I hope I'll be back later when things have calmed down but it's just not enjoyable if it feels like I have to prepare for combat whenever I open the KSP forums!

[Observe]

33 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Honestly - I think the only way Intercept is going to resolve this is to fix the game.  That's the only thing that will ultimately work.  But in the meantime they either should find a better way to communicate with fans - or go completely dark and work their tails off until its fixed.

I agree. Given the current state of the game, anything they say at this point is either construed as more lies on top of lies or just adds more fuel to the fire, forging even more pitchforks for the angry defrauded players. These days, whenever I read anything by Nate or others from the company desperately trying to pull the wool over our eyes with poorly constructed marketing BS, I leave feeling they need to hire someone who is either better at lying or better at telling the truth.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Observe

[Wheehaw Kerman]

On 5/20/2023 at 10:53 PM, Klapaucius said:

 A bit of history: I did not even want to pay Kerbal. I got asked to help run a community program using KSP with kids in our library.  I had not played games since I was a kid (other than solitaire) and was very frustrated over the weekend I spent having to learn this thing on the fly.

Here is my first post:

And yet this game got its hooks into me.  I now have over 1800 hours in Kerbal Space Program 1 and 167 in Kerbal Space Program 2 (KSP sounds too much like KFC to me--not a fan of abbreviating everything), a lot of that time spent building ridiculous craft and making them fly.

What kept me going and going was the community, specifically this forum.  The fun of the game was doing challenges, building nutty stuff and then sharing it.   Highlights include my first thread of the month:

Getting featured twice on the official KSP Twitter feed first for my centipede plane and then for my frog was amazing.

Getting kudos and support from other forum members and Squad Staff. @Just Jim said many a kind word, and that was a big boost.

My favorite challenge I participated in was probably @Kergarin's walker challenge, which inspired a whole lot of silliness in me.  

My K.R.A.S.S.H. Industries (Klapaucius Reliable Air, Space, Sea & Hardware) motto: Practicality is for the unenlightened came out of this challenge.

There are so many challenges I enjoyed--both those I created and those created by others.

 

This is a very roundabout way of saying that  I think I would have dropped it long ago if I only had myself and my PC.   The community makes this game.  But that community is fraying. Yes, the new game has issues, and yes they can be frustrating, yet it seems so many discussions, especially when we get an official update, devolve into gripe sessions. The moderators have done an amazing job of trying to keep things on track, but there is only so much they can do.

I respect that there are many for whom trying to play the game in its current state is too much, and have taken a break. I respect there are those trying to make constructive feedback and move things forward. But I really have an issue with a lot of the criticism that is not constructive, often entitled and does nothing to move the game forward.  There is a damned if you do, damned if you don't aspect these days. If we don't get an update, someone gripes about lack of updates. If we do get one, someone asks why we got one if it does not contain every item they hoped for.  This is exhausting.  Part of me thinks I should just not read those threads, but another part of me wonders why I should have to.

These days "Telling it like it is" often seems an excuse to be rude or abusive.  In addition, as someone living not in the country of my birth, I have come to realize that other cultures may have different ways of dealing with conflict.  How I navigate conflict here in New Zealand is far different to how I navigate it back when I am in the US.  We have an international forum here, including many people whose first language is not English.  It helps to err on the side of diplomacy.

Anyone who has seen me on these forums over the past five years knows I try not to get in disputes, try to see the positive and try to be helpful and constructive when I can.  I'm not sure even posting this thread is a good idea, and I may be inadvertently inviting that which I am trying to work against.  But I am just frustrated--not at the game, but at the community. I feel let down.

Fortunately, I have other wonderful things in my life. I belong to a keen boardgaming group and I am an avid whitewater kayaker, which gets me outside and active, challenging me in a myriad of ways.  Perhaps a few other folks who are riled up might consider getting outdoors--it does wonders to clear the head and calm the nerves.

I'm just not sure I want to be part of this forum anymore, despite the many wonderful folks who are still here.

Ultimately, it will not be the bugs and crashes that drive me away from Kerbal. It will be the negativity.

 

Well, that’ll get better with time.  IG will drop updates.  The game will get better.  The toxicity and hissy fits will dwindle.  The meltdowns will get rarer.  Already it’s down to the point where you have a few people just constantly pushing the same narrative.  They’re easily ignored.

Things can only get better.

[Wheehaw Kerman]

23 hours ago, Dantheollie said:

I find it disheartening that the replies to this post have become the very thing the author of the post was complaining about. Nothing can be done about that though, as an online forum, this is just the natural state of things.

Our community here is relatively small however and a lot of familiar faces pop-up in these spiraling discussions. Maybe they pop-up too much, if you understand what I'm saying.

If my opinion can be of any value (which it isn't) I'd like to respectfully ask a particular set of users if it is worth the time and effort to continuously battle each other, at the detriment of the social fabric of our community. Sometimes it is better to acknowledge a differing opinion, and feel that one need not respond

Thing that I wonder is why the negativity?  It’s been months.  If people really believed that Nate’s a lying psychopath and the game is doomed, why stick around?

I wonder whether there’s a blocking function on the forums… It might be useful for those of us who can’t tune the anti-hypers out.

[Davidian1024]

On 5/20/2023 at 10:53 PM, Klapaucius said:

 A bit of history: I did not even want to pay Kerbal. I got asked to help run a community program using KSP with kids in our library.  I had not played games since I was a kid (other than solitaire) and was very frustrated over the weekend I spent having to learn this thing on the fly.

Here is my first post:

And yet this game got its hooks into me.  I now have over 1800 hours in Kerbal Space Program 1 and 167 in Kerbal Space Program 2 (KSP sounds too much like KFC to me--not a fan of abbreviating everything), a lot of that time spent building ridiculous craft and making them fly.

What kept me going and going was the community, specifically this forum.  The fun of the game was doing challenges, building nutty stuff and then sharing it.   Highlights include my first thread of the month:

Getting featured twice on the official KSP Twitter feed first for my centipede plane and then for my frog was amazing.

Getting kudos and support from other forum members and Squad Staff. @Just Jim said many a kind word, and that was a big boost.

My favorite challenge I participated in was probably @Kergarin's walker challenge, which inspired a whole lot of silliness in me.  

My K.R.A.S.S.H. Industries (Klapaucius Reliable Air, Space, Sea & Hardware) motto: Practicality is for the unenlightened came out of this challenge.

There are so many challenges I enjoyed--both those I created and those created by others.

 

This is a very roundabout way of saying that  I think I would have dropped it long ago if I only had myself and my PC.   The community makes this game.  But that community is fraying. Yes, the new game has issues, and yes they can be frustrating, yet it seems so many discussions, especially when we get an official update, devolve into gripe sessions. The moderators have done an amazing job of trying to keep things on track, but there is only so much they can do.

I respect that there are many for whom trying to play the game in its current state is too much, and have taken a break. I respect there are those trying to make constructive feedback and move things forward. But I really have an issue with a lot of the criticism that is not constructive, often entitled and does nothing to move the game forward.  There is a damned if you do, damned if you don't aspect these days. If we don't get an update, someone gripes about lack of updates. If we do get one, someone asks why we got one if it does not contain every item they hoped for.  This is exhausting.  Part of me thinks I should just not read those threads, but another part of me wonders why I should have to.

These days "Telling it like it is" often seems an excuse to be rude or abusive.  In addition, as someone living not in the country of my birth, I have come to realize that other cultures may have different ways of dealing with conflict.  How I navigate conflict here in New Zealand is far different to how I navigate it back when I am in the US.  We have an international forum here, including many people whose first language is not English.  It helps to err on the side of diplomacy.

Anyone who has seen me on these forums over the past five years knows I try not to get in disputes, try to see the positive and try to be helpful and constructive when I can.  I'm not sure even posting this thread is a good idea, and I may be inadvertently inviting that which I am trying to work against.  But I am just frustrated--not at the game, but at the community. I feel let down.

Fortunately, I have other wonderful things in my life. I belong to a keen boardgaming group and I am an avid whitewater kayaker, which gets me outside and active, challenging me in a myriad of ways.  Perhaps a few other folks who are riled up might consider getting outdoors--it does wonders to clear the head and calm the nerves.

I'm just not sure I want to be part of this forum anymore, despite the many wonderful folks who are still here.

Ultimately, it will not be the bugs and crashes that drive me away from Kerbal. It will be the negativity.

 

Wow, I almost missed this post because of all the negativity.  I strongly agree with the sentiment here, and I for one hope you stay.

[Wheehaw Kerman]

1 hour ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

I share some of your concerns - and the NON KSP2 portions of the forums (like my usual hangout, "Science and Spaceflight") are still the way you recall.

The emotions people are expressing here go way past disappointment or annoyance with bugs.  Folks here feel like they were actively deceived and outright scammed into buying a product that is so clearly not what they were promised. 

The counter argument to this seems to come in two forms: a pollyannish "the game has potential, it's EA, they can fix it, give them time" or an ad-hominem attack on the complainer for being so emotional about the experience.  That is often followed by wall posts about all the failure to meet expectations, explanations supporting the emotional content or responsive ad hominems... resulting in thread closure.  Repeat cycle.

It's pretty much the same six people in multiple threads barking and snapping at one another, along with maybe another 12 who like to do drivebys on either side of the argument.

 

The point I keep coming back to is that Intercept has a 'good will' problem at the moment and have been prosecuting a failed Comm Strategy.  I've recommended to them to hire a Crisis Management consultant - because their in-house solutions are either worrying people at the low end to driving people away in the main, or outright liquiding them off.

Most people have left.  You can tell this by merely skimming the KSP2 boards.  Those who've stuck around seem to me to be people who would actively enjoy playing the KSP2 version we've been led to believe could happen... so I don't resent them their opinions.  Even if I am kind of amazed they can hold on to their anger this long.

Honestly - I think the only way Intercept is going to resolve this is to fix the game.  That's the only thing that will ultimately work.  But in the meantime they either should find a better way to communicate with fans - or go completely dark and work their tails off until its fixed.

 

I’d hardly call a few people having repetitive meltdowns on here a good will problem or a comms crisis.  It’s a failure of moderation at worst, but frankly I’d rather the mods have a light hand, so I wouldn’t even call it that.  They’re just going to fade away over the course of EA and won’t have any impact on the game.  

They’re irrelevant, and I expect that at this point the IG CM team has got their measure, and IG management doesn’t care a bit about them. They’re not a problem for IG - they just make the forums toxic for us if you can’t discount and ignore them.

To your last point, the game is in EA.  IG is going to continue improving and expanding it, and eventually drop 1.0.  I wouldn’t worry - as the game gets better the drama will fade.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

1 hour ago, Wheehaw Kerman said:

To your last point, the game is in EA.  IG is going to continue improving and expanding it, and eventually drop 1.0.  I wouldn’t worry - as the game gets better the drama will fade.

I wrestle with this every day.

...but they make it hard to.

[Wheehaw Kerman]

4 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

I wrestle with this every day.

...but they make it hard to.

Dude, it’s been what… three months or so?  KSP took nearly a decade.  Given that KSP2 is being developed by a much larger, more professional tram that KSP was, I’ll start worrying in a couple years.

Just because some people yell the same thing over and over again does not make it true, whether it’s flat Earthers, antivaxxers, conspiracy theorists, or angry gamers.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

9 minutes ago, Wheehaw Kerman said:

, it’s been what… three months or so?  KSP took nearly a decade

The KSP analogy is inapt.  

*Deleted the rest.*