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An Open Letter from the KSP1 mod developer community to the KSP2 player base and development team.


Poodmund

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My biggest concern is documentation actually. My software only needs minimal access to KSP 2's data, but what I really need is a theory manual that describes the force and torque models on your vehicle.  That includes drag models, atmosphere models, lift models, engine thrust models, etc.

It's my biggest hope that the devs will provide this information to us modders so we don't have to reverse engineer it ourselves. 

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On behave of the KIU team, we wholeheartedly agree with the letter. Please add the KIU team as one of the signatories if it's not too much of a trouble. We developed KIU Chinese Pack(KCLV, KCHS, KCDE)

Also, our team are very worried about the performance of KSP2. We tested that KSP2 is barely smoothly running with the latest and greatest hardware, making us hesitant about adding hundreds of parts we developed for KSP1 to KSP2.

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I haven't been an active member of the modding community in years (though I think someone took over my old Taurus HCV pack), but I could not agree more with this statement. The release of KSP 2 was something I hoped would spur me into jumping back into the community wholeheartedly, but the issues stated in the first post (and lack of resources available to modders) have stopped those plans entirely.

I hope that Intercept take this message to heart and can not only fix the bugs in KSP2 but can create the platform for mods and user-generated content that it deserves to be!

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6 hours ago, magico13 said:

As the original dev of Kerbal Construction Time, StageRecovery, ScrapYard and a bunch of small mods, I'm in agreement with a lot of this letter (consider me signed). I won't touch modding KSP2 until there's an official loader. An unstable API is fine by me at this stage of the game's development but I'm not going to go through a third party loader when the base of one exists in the current code. There's danger in too many competing standards and the fragmentation it can cause.

OMG you're alive.

Fun fact, I accidentally cloned and built your KCT repo on...  I think it ws KSP 1.10.1?   When I was newish to modding.

It worked mostly fine, lol.

Edited by R-T-B
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4 hours ago, bsquiklehausen said:

I haven't been an active member of the modding community in years (though I think someone took over my old Taurus HCV pack), but I could not agree more with this statement. The release of KSP 2 was something I hoped would spur me into jumping back into the community wholeheartedly, but the issues stated in the first post (and lack of resources available to modders) have stopped those plans entirely.

I hope that Intercept take this message to heart and can not only fix the bugs in KSP2 but can create the platform for mods and user-generated content that it deserves to be!

Love your cities skylines stuff!:cool:

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26 minutes ago, Dakota said:

We're happy to provide more clarification to the above if asked specific questions, however obviously we can't pull back the curtain fully since we still have some secret plans in the works.  I ( @Dakota) will be your go-to liaison for these questions, so feel free to tag me wherever you'd like.

Dakota - thanks for the responses. If nothing else, I hope to be able to have a continuous dialogue between devs and the modding community moving forward.

I believe there was mention, years ago, about providing some sort of spec-sheet for creating parts?

Offhand, things that part modders would want to know to start working:

  • Information on the shader (ie can we start working using the Unity Standard PBR shader as a standin?)
  • What maps are required/used (diffuse, roughness, normals, etc)? How are they organized?
  • How do the player color palettes work? I assume there is a mask texture.
  • What standards are in place for things like part diameters, side counts for stack parts, texel density, etc.
  • What should we expect in terms of interiors moving forward - are IVAs expected to be integrated directly into pods' exterior models? Are windows meant to be opaque?

While it's still a bit early to be trying to get large amounts of custom parts in game, those are things that would let artists start preparing assets while we wait for more information. Things like the Unity workflow, configuring the parts, and other technical gameplay things like colliders and solar panel setups can wait until a later date.

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5 minutes ago, Dakota said:

One, we truly appreciate your passion for modding and we want to reiterate our commitment to having modding support as a core pillar of KSP2. Over the past 3 years, modding has been a continuous point of discussion in engineering and leadership meetings - and the team has very much enjoyed watching you all slowly dive deep into the game as it is today.

The foundation that you all found is exactly that: a foundation. But it's a foundation mostly for our team right now, and eventually for you all. We're planning on supporting an internal modloader as soon as we can, since we need to know what mods are loaded on each client in a multiplayer session in order to version and checksum them to avoid MP problems - oh I don't think we've mentioned yet that modding support in multiplayer is a priority for us...well hey now is a good time as ever!

We have plans for our internal modloader to support multiple kinds of mods, so the work you're doing right now should - hopefully - be transferable without too much extra work.

One of our engineers did want to point some of you in the right direction:

---

We're happy to provide more clarification to the above if asked specific questions, however obviously we can't pull back the curtain fully since we still have some secret plans in the works.  I ( @Dakota) will be your go-to liaison for these questions, so feel free to tag me wherever you'd like.

---

I've mentioned this before on Discord and here on the Forums, but yes - bugfixing and performance optimizations are our priority. If you read back over our Performance Update, you can see where modding lies in our priority list. It's so important, but fixing the game for the "vanilla" user right now is our goal. 

---

If you have any other concerns/questions/comments/suggestions, the forums is the best place to do it.  Appreciate you all and the work you all put in, looking forward to the amazing things you will build with our game.

Dakota + the Engineering Team

Hey Dakota, thanks for the info!  Could you comment on my thought about providing documentation  and a theory manual for those of us who work on projects that involve modeling KSP dynamics outside of KSP?

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1 hour ago, Dakota said:

*snip*

Thank you for the response from the Team. I'm sure the KSP2 player base can appreciate the hard work that you are all doing to facilitate this open communication, especially at this time... and hopefully everyone can appreciate that their favourite KSP1 mods may not be in a stage to be re-made in KSP2 yet.

I'm sure all those who contributed to the letter will see your Team's replies and will ask some reasoned and well-thought out questions (just not too many! :D )

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22 hours ago, Poodmund said:

Dear Kerbal Space Program 2 player base community and Kerbal Space Program 2 developers,

This is an open letter from the Kerbal Space Program 1 mod developer community to everybody involved in Kerbal Space Program 2.

As a summary, this letter will cover the following points of topic:

  • The KSP1 mod development community feels that the game is not yet ready for modding in an effective and manageable way.
  • An official mod loader is not currently available for the game, which brings with it several challenges.
  • We would like to address the issue of 3rd party mod loaders.
  • There are currently a lot of bugs in the game, and fixing these may have significant changes on API.
  • Game-breaking bugs and performance issues should be prioritized before focusing on modding.
  • There is a disparity in the design direction of parts and features, and it would be beneficial to have clear guidance on this before modding in earnest.
  • The KSP1 mod development community is publicly addressing these areas of consideration for the benefit of the KSP2 player base understanding.
  • We would like to address the KSP2 player base regarding mod developers and their work.

As members of the Kerbal Space Program 1 mod developer community, we wanted to address the current state of the game concerning Kerbal Space Program 2 mod development. We understand that many players are eagerly anticipating the release of mods, and we too are excited about the possibilities that modding can bring to the game. However, at this time we believe that the game's state does not allow for the Kerbal Space Program mod development community to engage, wholeheartedly, in effective and manageable mod development.

The primary reason for this is that the official mod loader is not yet available for use. Without this tool, mod developers are unable to create mods for the game and distribute them to players for use in an easy and managed way. Whilst we understand that the development of the official mod loader is a complex process that takes time, we prompt the Kerbal Space Program 2 development team to take into consideration its completion and publication so that modders can have a stable and public platform to build from in a standardized manner.

We also want to acknowledge that third-party mod loaders have already been created and are being used by some members of the community, however, we believe that it is important for the Kerbal Space Program 2 development team to provide an official mod loader that is fully supported and integrated into the game. As a long-standing community of over a decade, the Kerbal Space Program 1 mod developers have always been very collaborative and have worked together to find agreeable standards within the mod development community using platforms that serve the needs of plugins/parts/gameplay/etc. mod creators in a managed and communicative way.

While we appreciate the efforts of third-party mod loader creators, we believe that the official mod loader will provide a more stable and consistent platform for mod development alongside 3rd party tools, where necessary, to leverage processes that the official mod loader may not support or does not provide the scope for a mod’s development and implementation. We hope that the Kerbal Space Program 2 development team will consider this and review the timeframe of the development, and release, of an official mod loader that is fully supported and integrated into the game at some point in the not-too-distant future.

Furthermore, there are currently a significant number of bugs present in the game that must be addressed before modding can commence in earnest. The fixing of these bugs may affect the API, making it difficult or even impossible for modders to create content that is stable and compatible with the game, potentially disrupting player experience. We challenge the development team to prioritize the resolution of these bugs so that mod developers can work with a stable and reliable platform.

As addressed above, we appreciate that there are many significant bugs and performance issues currently in the released version of the game that are affecting player experience and gameplay. We feel that these should remain the focus of development to ‘fix’ the game for the core audience.

Additionally, we have noticed a significant disparity in design direction between the game and its predecessor, Kerbal Space Program. This has left many mod developers unsure of how to approach mod development for Kerbal Space Program 2, as the game's direction is not yet clear. We ask that, in due course, the development team provide guidance and documentation on mod development so that we can better understand the game's design and create mods that are in line with its vision, not only from a codebase standpoint but, more importantly, from an artistic design standards aspect.

We appreciate the hard work that the Kerbal Space Program 2 development team has put into the game so far and we understand that creating a game of this magnitude is no small feat, however, we believe that modding is an essential part of the Kerbal Space Program franchise experience and we hope that the development team will consider our concerns and work to ensure that mod developers have the tools and support they need to create great content for the game.

While it may seem as though the previous number of points are solely addressing the game’s development and that it may come across as directed towards the Kerbal Space Program 2 development team, we would like to clarify that our primary intention is to convey these points to the Kerbal Space Program 2 player base clearly and transparently. We feel it's essential for the Kerbal Space Program 1 mod development community to express our views and standpoint, publicly, to the player base for clarity. Rest assured that we believe the Kerbal Space Program 2 development team is already acutely aware of the issues raised in this letter.

Finally, we would like to reiterate a plea to the Kerbal Space Program 2 player base to please be patient as the game's development progresses. We understand that it can be frustrating to wait, but we believe that the development team is doing its best to create the best game possible and to provide a platform to use to create mods. We also ask that you please be respectful of the existing mods, their licenses, and their authors. Mod development is an important part of the Kerbal Space Program community, and we ask that you respect the hard work and dedication that goes into creating these mods.

To conclude, we urge you to enjoy the game and the community. Kerbal Space Program has always been a game that encourages exploration, creativity, and innovation. Let's continue to support each other and make the most of this incredible game... and to the KSP2 development team, "Good luck, we're rooting for you!"

Thank you for your attention and for your understanding.

Sincerely,

The Kerbal Space Program 1 (and hopefully 2 going forward) mod developer community

Signed:

@610yesnolovely - Reviva, Wacapella, Kplanes
@Acea - Naval Artillery System
@Ailex - Starilex intra-vehicular solutions : Mk.1 pod 'needle', Starilex Nightstar
@AlphaMensae - Modular Launch Pads
@Angelo Kerman - Airships (Heisenberg), BARIS, Blueshift, Buffalo 1 & 2, Classic Stock Resources, DSEV, EVARepairs, Kerbal Flying Saucers, Mk-33, MOLE, More Servos, Pathfinder, Sandcastle, Servo Controller, SLOTH, Snacks, SunkWorks, Wild Blue Core, Wild Blue Decals, Wild Blue Tools
@Arrowstar - KSP Trajectory Optimization Tool (KSPTOT)
@astro_119 - AeroSpace Technologies and Reusable Operations (ASTRO) 
@ballisticfox0 - KSRSS, Gas Giants Enhanced + Moons, Beyond Home
@Balto-the-Wolf-Dog - Prakasa Aeroworks
@Beale - Tantares (LV) (SP), Commonwealth Rockets, Project Manager, Netptune Camera, Gemstone LV, Special Delivery
@benjee10 - HabTech2, Shuttle Orbiter Construction Kit, Artemis Construction Kit, Planetside Exploration Technologies, reDIRECT, Historical Kerbal Heads & Suits, Coriolis Space Systems
@blackheart612 - Airplane Parts Plus, Grounded
@blackrack - Scatterer, EVE-Redux, Singularity
@blowfish - B9PartSwitch, B9 Aerospace, Advanced Jet Engines, Simple Adjustable Fairings
@cineboxandrew - ReStock, Conformal Decals
@CobaltWolf - Bluedog Design Bureau
@Consta - ArchaeSP
@Daishi - Universal Storage 1 & 2
@Damon - Tundra Exploration, Tundra's Space Center, KSC Extended, KRE (Kerbal Reusability Expansion), Shangsheng Orbital
@DMagic - SCANsat, DMagic Orbital Science, Contracts Window, CapCom, Tracking Station Evolved, Basic Orbit, Universal Storage 1 & 2
@DRVeyl - RealAntennas, Procedural Parts, Procedural Fairings, Realism Overhaul, Realistic Progression 1, Realism Overhaul mod suite, RealFuels/MFT
@DylanSemrau - Photon Corp, Boring Crew Services, Chrayol Design Org, Provenance Aerospace
@Eskandare - Kerbin Side Remastered (KSR), Eskandare Aerospace (EA), Carrier Vessel Expansion (CVX), Unnamed Submersible Base Mod (Unreleased), Unnamed O'Neill Station Experimental Mod, Thermonuclear Turbine (TTX), Kerbal Rotor Expansion (KRX), Kerbal Shuttle Orbiter System (KSOS)
@EStreetRockets - ORANGES, Rocket Motor Menagerie, Asbury Western Stars Industries, Eisenhower Astronautics
@flart - Speed Unit Annex, Community Part Titles, KVASS, Water Launch Sites, Utility Weight, CommNet Antennas Extension / Info / Consumptor
@GregroxMun - Alternis Kerbol Rekerjiggered, Seven Worlds of SLIPPIST-1, Whirligig World, Week World Planet Jam, Planet Jam 2
@hemeac - Kiwi Tech Tree Overhaul, Mid Century Rocketry, Aerobee Rockets, Kiwi Suits
@Icecovery - Automated Aerial Refueling System, Comfortable Landing, KSP Secondary Motion, Custom Parachute Message, Shaddy
@Invaderchaos - Bluedog Design Bureau, Optimized Rocketry and General Exploration Systems (ORANGES), BDB Now in Colors, SOCK Recoloured, KSRSS
@jrodriguez - BDArmoryContinued, PhysicsRangeExtender, BDArmoryMultiplayer, BDModularMissiles, OfCourseIStillLoveYou
@Judicator81 - SimpleRepaint, PartInfoInPAW
@Kari - Starship Expansion Project
@Katniss218 - CameraToolsKatnissified, StagedAnimationKatnissified (Animkat), EngineLightKatnissified, RSS planets, Katniss's LUT, Parts Pack, Cape Canaveral & Baikonur Cosmodrome
@Knight of St John - Stock Waterfall Effects (SWE)
@Lil_Bread402 - Transport Space Technology/Systems, StarstroSpaceSystems, SSOUPP, SOCKrepainted, reCOLOR
@linuxgurugamer - 290 Mods (at time of writing) including: Anyres, AQSS - AutoQuickSave System, Automated Screenshots, BigBen, Bob's Panic Box, Click Through Blocker, ConstantTWR, Craft Import, Fill It Up, HeapPadder, IFI Life Support, Integrated Stack Decouplers, JanitorsCloset, Kaptains Log, KRASH, KSPLogger, LoadingScreenManager, ModularSegmentedSRBs, ModuleAnimateGenericEffects, ModuleAnimGenericResourceUsage, ModuleSequentialAnimateGeneric, Notes2Log, PartInfo, PatchManager, ShowFPS, StockDefaultSettings, Toolbar Controller, TotalTime, TutorialFixes, Vessel Notes & Logs
@Gameslinx - Parallax, Beyond Home, After Kerbin, Before Kerbin
@Maffif - Models for KSP: Interstellar, Bluedog Design Bureau and SK Nuclear
@MATVEICH_YT - Shuttle Payload Delivery Systems, H-II (H3) Transfer Vehicle, reCOLOR
@Morphisor - History of Spaceflight, Research Advancement Division, Bluedog Design Bureau contracts
@NathanKell - Modular Fuel Systems, Real Fuels, Real Solar System, Realism Overhaul, Realistic Progression 1, RealHeat, Staged Animation, AJE and SolverEngines, Kerbal Konstructs, Proc Fairings, Proc Parts, KSP Community Fixes, Contract Configurator, TestFlight
@Nessus_ - Tundra Exploration configs
@Pkmniako - Other Worlds (2015, 2017, 2023)
@nightingale - Contract Configurator, Strategia, Waypoint Manager
@Norange - XN Aerospace
@Pak - Cormorant Aeronology - Mk3 Space Shuttle
@Pehvbot - Less Real Than Realism, Less Real Test Flight, Rackmount
@pizzaoverhead - Atmospheric Sound Enhancement, Battery Indicator, CollisionFX, FreeIVA, KerbTrack, RCS Sounds, Reentry Particle Effect, Sound Overhaul, Soundtrack Editor, Water Sounds, Wheel Sounds
@Poodmund - Outer Planets Mod, ReStock, Pood's Skyboxes
RO/RP-1 Team (@Al2Me6, @siimav, @Stonesmile, @Theysen & more) - Realism Overhaul, Realistic Progression 1
@Rodger - Bumblebee, Bluedog Design Bureau
@R-T-B - Kopernicus (v1.9.X+)
@Rudolf Meier - Infernal Robotics Next, Kerbal Joint Reinforcement Next
@sarbian - ModuleManager, MechJeb 2, SmokeScreen, CustomBarnKit
@severedsolo - Bureaucracy, Earn Your Stripes, Oh Scrap, Where Can I Go, Alarm Enhancements, All Aboard, PAWS, Double Tap Brakes
@sirkut - Infernal Robotics
@SofieBrink - Starship Expansion Project
@stratochief66 - Real Solar System, Realism Overhaul, Realistic Progression 0
@stupid_chris - RealChute
@sumghai - SDHI Service Module System, SDHI Strobe-O-Matic Warning Rotator Lights
@themaster401 - Astronomer's Visual Pack, Better Atmospheres Reborn
@TiktaalikDreaming - The Nexus
@tony48 - KSRSS
@Zarbon44 - Intercolor
@tygoo7 - Dodo Labs, Tundra Exploration
@Vals_Aerospace - Coscoroba Logistics
@ValiZockt - Smart Docking Aid, Kerbalism Companion Calculator, Plugins for HabTech2, Planetside Exploration Technologies, Historical Kerbal Suits and Tundra Exploration
@Viper - Bluedog Design Bureau
@VITAS - SpaceDock, DMP
@Zoeille - Aurora Space Center, Apollon, Picsou
@Zorg - Bluedog Design Bureau, RealPlume

If you are also a member of the mod development community and agree with the sentiment expressed above, please feel free to post in this thread communicating as such.

Post on the /r/KerbalSpaceProgram sub-Reddit: "Making a mod is hard, making a game is harder."

EDIT: I will try to keep the post up to date with signatures as much as I am able to.

Sarbian is a damn LEGEND

 

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This is fantastic. I really would love to see modding in KSP2, but it is a bit early for such wishes. I know we will get to a point to where the game is stable and performance is in a state to where we can get the nod to start on up part mods. Love to see both sides come together on a topic that unites us all. 

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Thank you so much for this, as a modder desperately trying to figure out how to even get KSP 2 to function, it’s hard to not agree with everything said. This game has the potential but in no way does it meet anything that is needed for modding. You basically took the words out of my mouth 

Edited by Heliocentric
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in DMP most problems (apart from firewalls and port forwarding) come from missing parts on one machine. So even DMP needs the same (parts) mods on every client to be able to show vessels using them.

So KSP2 MP needs mod synching and mods working with MP will need to be aware of MP if they alter certain things (e.g. planet mods).

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5 hours ago, Dakota said:

We're happy to provide more clarification to the above if asked specific questions, however obviously we can't pull back the curtain fully since we still have some secret plans in the works.  I ( @Dakota) will be your go-to liaison for these questions, so feel free to tag me wherever you'd like.

Dakota + the Engineering Team

Once again thanks very much for taking the time to respond to this, especially with so much on everyone's plates! The willingness of the devs to communicate with the community openly like this is reassuring, and I am really excited to see how the modding community for this game will develop. 

My biggest question is really whether we can consider the parts currently in game now as 'finished' (or near to it), or if some of them are placeholder assets and may be replaced down the line. As others have noted there is some discrepancy in things like side counts between parts of similar diameters, and we can also see some legacy assets from the first game that appear to have made it through almost unchanged, while other parts have been completely remodelled. We are also seeing different detailing & texturing techniques being used, for example some have modelled panel lines while others use normal maps, some are using tiling textures while other have baked AO maps. 

If we may be seeing revamps down the line, it would be great to know which of the current part set are closest to 'final' so that those of us who want to match stock parts to some degree can base our work on those. I think if there was even one part we could look at and say, yes, this is how we want KSP2 parts to be on the whole, then that would probably be enough for me to take the plunge and start making assets. Otherwise I can only echo what Cobalt has said re. getting some guidance on shaders, texture maps etc. 

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I agree and want be one of the signees

@Lisias, TweakScale, TweakScaleCompanion, KSP-Recall, Aviation Lights, GPOSpeedPump (code monkey associated), Distant Object Enhancement, Kourageous Tourists, KAX, Hooligan Labs Airships Core (code monkey associated), Impossible Innovations, Score! .

— — 

Pinging @Poodmund!

Edited by Lisias
forgot to ping the dude!
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Wow. I had no idea so much went into modding a game, though that's probably why I never got into attempting it. Thank you to the Modders & to the Private Division teams working on getting KSP 2 fully functional. Honestly, I knew the game was going to have its issues being launched as an EA game. That's kinda the whole point of EA to begin with! I still went for it as I can live with bugs, but not the whole "waiting" thing. I figured it would be fun to help a game series that I love get off the ground and into space! I've honestly been pleasantly surprised by how much of the game DOES function. It's not perfect, but it's making things REALLY challenging and I'm loving that! I didn't really get into KSP until a few years ago, so I feel like I missed the whole 'Kraken' era, and KSP 2 gave me a chance to finally be a part of that hilarious journey! I'm usually really pleased with "rocket go up", because whatever I built probably shouldn't be able to fly. With Kraken 2 lurking in the shadows behind my launchpad, I've had some serious out-of-breath laughs! It's still fun, even in its infancy, even if we don't have all the features yet, even if we don't have mods yet. Mod creators - I'm behind you waiting 100%, there's literally no point in wasting your time creating these things if you have to go back a week later and remake it because the most recent update changed things. PD - Keep doing your thing, you've done a great job getting this thing off the ground, and I can't wait to see where we go from here!

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